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Reframe Podcast: Episode 41

Being Open and Honest About Sexuality (Part 2)

Richelle Frabotta giving a lecture about sexuality education

In our last episode, we began to explore the complex subject of human sexuality, as well as why it’s still so challenging for educators to provide a proper sexuality education. And so, this time we continue our conversation with certified sexuality educator Richelle Frabotta. 

We’ll talk about the direction society seems to be moving on this issue, and we’ll learn about what Miami’s new Sexuality Education Studies Center will do for the campus and the community.

Read the transcript

James Loy:

This is Reframe, The podcast from the College of Education, Health and Society on the campus of Miami University in Oxford, Ohio.

In our last episode, we began to explore the complex subject of human sexuality, as well as why it’s still so challenging for educators to provide a proper sexuality education. And so, this time we continue our conversation with certified sexuality educator Richelle Frabotta.

We’ll talk about the direction society seems to be moving on this issue, and we’ll learn about what Miami’s new Sexuality Education Studies Center will do for the campus and the community.

(MUSIC FADE)

James Loy:

Thanks for your time again today. I’m hoping this question moves the conversation forward from the last episode but also serves as a good jumping on point for anyone who may not have listened to the first part yet.

Richelle Frabotta:

Sure. 

James Loy:

So when talking about the need for more sexuality education, it seems like that’s related to how open to that idea we are as a society. And if you do a basic Google search on the sexual revolution, for example, it will tell you about a time in the 1960s when our culture did start to become more open and accepting. That’s still, anecdotally at least, it’s still seen as a turning point of some kind. So is that momentum still continuing? Or are we regressing? Or what happened since then?

Richelle Frabotta:

So, to support your point around this idea of the sexual revolution and, you know, those of us informed, or who have lived through that time period, recognize it. My credentialing body, AASECT, came around in 1967. Quad-s, the Society for the Scientific Study of Sex, was also, I believe, in ’67. Late 60s. You know, without Masters and Johnson’s pioneering work in creating sex therapy, without the experiments in their lab to talk about  . . . They were the first people essentially to write down the four stages of sexual response. That happened in the 1960s. 50s. 60s. 70s. You know, we de-pathologized . . . We took homosexuality out of the Diagnostic Statistical Manual in 1973.    

So, yeah, there was a lot of movement. A lot of recognition of multicultural . . .  And I do feel like we are reflecting those time periods today. And I guess one of the beauties of being an old lady is I now get it. Because I've seen it. You know, I've read about things in books. But now I'm feeling these cycles. And I think we're about to head back into a huge shutdown again. A huge pathologizing, or medicalizing, or shunning, or shaming, again. I kind of thought we were doing good coming out of it. But, to be candid . . . I mean, I'm thinking of several examples. I'm thinking of them, you know, Hobby Lobby, as a corporation, determining what a woman can and cannot choose for her birth control methods based on the insurance they offer.

In 2005, Dr. Seufert, who is on our Middletown campus. Great researcher. In his applied research facility was commissioned by the state to investigate Ohio's parents and their teens, and then a third group of just teens’ feelings and ideas about what should be taught in a sex-ed program. If it should be taught and what the content should be. It came out clearly -- I feel like in 2005-2007 -- that abstinence-only is NOT what Ohio's parents and their teens, and then this other group of teens, wanted. Matter of fact, they wanted a broad curriculum, and they wanted it taught by that classroom teacher, and they wanted that classroom teacher to be informed. 

So, you tell me. We have a staunch researcher, who's well respected, one of our own, with the research study that was statewide. Paid for, by the way, with I believe abstinence-only money. And it came out in a way . . . research came out in a way that suggested what the state of Ohio was doing wasn't right, or working, or wanted. It wasn't wanted. That's what the research really said. And yet, what have we done? Nothing. It's 2018 and I challenge you to go find the sex-ed policy for the state of Ohio. First of all, it doesn't exist. And second of all, it is basically one infusion in a health curriculum about sexually transmitted infections. And there's the hangover from the 2005 . . . the language is escaping me. But the money that came from the government to fix the roads, also mandated that abstinence-only until marriage education be taught in the state of Ohio. And there were A through H criteria. And that anybody walking into a classroom teaching anything to do with sexuality had to support, or only identify, those A through H criteria. Those are pretty easy to find. So that . . . it’s not . . . That’s not progress.

I mean, one of the things I love about my work is working with folks who want to do this, who are younger than me.

James Loy:

Has it been encouraging and inspiring working with Miami students? 

Richelle Frabotta:

Oh, 100%. And that's one of the reasons the sex-ed study center has come about, is because I'm proud of my history. Since 2009, when I started here as a visiting, I'm proud to say that I am student-centered. I'm student focused. And they are in me as well. And I have, every semester, some of the best and brightest who are advancing ideas. And, in their own learning, coming up with, well, frankly, better ways. Which I think is a nice way to address your original question. It's a give and a take. And this old lady really needs some more giving to happen, and less taking. But, yeah 

James Loy:

So what was behind the genesis of the Sexuality Education Studies Center? How did it come about? How does it align with the EHS vision and mission?

Richelle Frabotta:

Philosophically, it came about based on this last bit of conversation we were having. I mean, it . . . there is a huge gap. It's not acceptable for our super smart, overachieving, well-resourced students to not understand that an egg has to come out of the ovary in order for a baby to be made. And then, to not understand exactly when that egg is supposed to come out of the ovary, and the processes that allow that to happen. That's just basic body function that you can do so much with.

It's unacceptable. So even though I give you a very specific example. It's an obvious gap in our culture. And so, here at this institution, we can start to have formal conversations via the center -- not that we haven't been having conversations -- but we now have a location. And the center gets to do different things that a department doesn't get to do. So, as a center, I get to partner with student services. I get to go work with the Ohio Department of Developmental Disabilities. I get to head on down to Hamilton High School and hang out with the special ed teachers, and talk shop around how to support their particular body of students with sexual health and wellness 

James Loy:

I think that’s a great overview. Can you talk more about what are some of the specific projects and partnerships that you’re working on?

Richelle Frabotta:

Sure. Well, first and foremost, I think it's also important to say the Sexuality Education Study Center isn't operating in a vacuum. So, you know, we subscribed to, obviously, the College of Education, Health and Society ideology. You know, I've been in McGuffey Hall and over to Phillips since 2009. This is my academic community. And I have done a lot of guest lecturing for obvious reasons. My very smart, well-resourced, overachieving colleagues also don't always know when an egg pops out of an ovary, or what to call it. And a lot of times . . . and more specifically and, you know, I’m doing a lot of work on intersectionality. Because our college pays attention to this. So a lot of work on talking about sexual identity and orientation and gender. 

So I get to work here with the people that I've grown attached to and buttress the ed psych department. I get to . . . through interdisciplinary partnerships, get to re-inform and un-inform some bad stuff and work towards some good stuff, curricularly. On campus, you know, I've had a couple conversations with Student Health and Wellness, and what can the center do to buttress that programming? And then, off campus, because . . . in my 25 years as a sexuality educator in southwest Ohio, I have lots of partnerships and, in particular, a couple of niches. I really appreciate folks with disabilities journeys in particular challenges. And, you know, I will just say typical folks don't get sex-ed. Guess what atypical folks don't get? At all. Period. And so, I've done a lot of work, and in particular the developmental disabilities community, which includes also autism. So, matter of fact, when I leave here today, I’m having lunch with two of the state of Ohio regional liaisons for the Department of Developmental Disabilities and we're going to talk statewide strategy.

James Loy:

When you do these sorts of talks, especially about disabilities, do you get . . .  I’ve heard you say that you’ve gotten pushback in this role from various people or organizations who are not okay with the ideas that you promote, or those who don’t even think certain students should receive this kind of education. But is that pushback even more pronounced when you are working with, or even try to approach the idea of working with, people with disabilities? Does it take an extra level of explanation to explain to people why people with disabilities such as autism need this education too?

Richelle Frabotta:

I mean . . . In short, the answer is yes. It's probably why I speak in paragraphs. Yeah, it takes more explanation. But what it really takes is the individual that I'm having a conversation with to be open to an explanation. When somebody comes in the room already deciding that their sixteen-year-old girl has to be a virgin until she's married, and hasn't consulted the sixteen-year-old girl, we've got a problem. Okay. You can have your opinion. What I do is student-centered, research-informed, medically accurate developmentally relevant, age-appropriate, education on very many, many, many topics that most people -- at least in my 14 years of Catholic education -- did not teach me. Yet, I had a ton of education by my interpersonal actions. My parents. My church. My community. Watching movies. Hearing music. You know, if you want to know what's Richelle's idea of romance? You go to 1970s classic rock and, you know, Yacht rock, and contemporary adult music, and you will understand how I think and feel about romance.

I mean, we're informed without really being informed. Everybody thinks there's sex-pert. I will never tell a parent that they don't know what's best for their kid. That's not a conversation I can have. But if you want to partner with me, as somebody who is an expert sexuality educator, so that you can parent your child, perhaps a little more effectively, because if what you're doing isn't working, then why not try another way? Then let's have that conversation. 

James Loy:

How unique is the Sexuality Education Studies Center? Are there more like it?

Richelle Frabotta:

So, again, having been involved in this field, I mostly have been nonprofit. You know, always had a side gig. I've always taught adjunct. I started at Sinclair in Dayton and taught adjunct at the University of Dayton, our Middletown campus, University of Cincinnati. Having said that, nonprofit was really my focus. So what I bring to the sex-ed studies center is an understanding of services and availability. And, in academia, this center doesn't really exist, especially in our region. 

So I'm comfortable saying that I don't know of anything else around. Indiana University is great with sex-ed stuff. Widener University in Pennsylvania. In the Michigan  . . . Sorry. University of Michigan in Ann Arbor. I can tell you where my colleagues are doing great work, where there are perhaps even centers that are doing work. But their focus isn't what our focus is going to be. Yeah, so we're kind of rare. So, we're going to offer unique opportunities to students that other, at this point, you know, academic institutions aren't offering. 

James Loy:

So how can students get involved, or other organizations, that may want to partner with you as well? Do students have to take your class? Can other organizations email or call? Can they just walk in your office door and say, “What can I do? How can I help?” 

Richelle Frabotta:

Right. Well, the answer is yes, yes, and yes. I'm approachable. I'm easy to spot in a crowd, usually. And having said that, it's just a matter of accessing me and finding time to talk about what it is that you think you want, or that your group wants. And then I can let you know if we can do it, and how we can do it.

I'm really open to these partnerships. I mean, I have the luxury now of having this center. Even though I . . . we've been doing this work a lot longer. So, let me get the logo on the door and, yeah, I would love for people to take my FSW365 course. You know, it started with 25 students. And now, I can go up to 188. I usually max out around 150. I like a large lecture classroom. So come on. If you want to audit it, or take it pass/fail, great. I support the students’ goals. But I guarantee you can't be in that classroom for 15 weeks and not leave without having reflected on your personal values, learning new information, and at least knowing where to go to find more information when you want it. I know those goals get achieved in 15 weeks. Actually, we probably do it in three. But, yeah, and that speaks not to me, or to our facility here. But to the lack of education out there around sexuality.       

James Loy:

So if there is someone who wants to start learning more, wants to get more engaged. Do you have advice for parents, teachers, students, or anyone, who wants to start having these conversations? Do you have advice? Or, just, where do people even begin?

Richelle Frabotta:

Yeah, right up. Well, holler. So the first step is to partner up with a sex-pert. And if it's not me that's your cup of tea, I mean, maybe you're listening to this in Washington State. Oh, dude, I got connections. I mean, I am nationally connected. I should be able to provide a quality resource for you wherever you are. And then, you know, fingers crossed you'll want to work with me too. And having said that, yeah, you need to go to the people . . .  You know, you're not going to call a hairdresser to fix your clogged toilet. We really need to understand . . . well, okay, I already understand it. Y'all need to understand that my job is legit, and, you know, there are ethics that go with my job. I am a teacher’s teacher about sexuality. I think, again, discerning who you're working. With I would not advise you to call a crisis pregnancy center for sexuality education. I mean, there are more places I would tell you probably not to call. So, I can hook you up with those resources. We can partner.

And then, you know, maybe this is the part that a lot of people don't want to hear. But maybe start, or continue, to do your own work around sexuality. So, if you. . . and I’m not talking about changing values or beliefs. But there are things that bother us. You know, we have intense emotional reactions. Okay. That's great. But start to do the intellectual work behind it. Because chances are, when it comes to human sexuality, you don't have the medically accurate, research-informed information. You have a knee-jerk reactionary, culturally-infused idea of what the world ought to be like. And if you think I'm wrong, then just wait a minute and see what happens to same-sex marriage. See what happens to transgender folks who want to use medical insurance for procedures that they're mandated to go through in order to be identified as the gender to which they want to be identified. There are all sorts of cultural and infused politics. So let's just get down to the basics. That's what you can do. And I'm happy to provide sources, or books, curricula, poems, artwork -- to help you start thinking the thinking. Instead of just feeling.

James Loy:

Alright, great. Well, thank you for your time again today. Richelle Frabotta, certified sexuality educator, and coordinator of the new Sexuality Education Studies Center here at Miami. And if you have any questions, or if you would like to get in contact with Richelle, you can visit the center’s website at miamioh.edu/sesc.

And thank you again for listening. If you would like to hear more episodes of our podcast, you can download them for free on iTunes or on SoundCloud.