James Loy:

This is Reframe, the podcast from the College of Education, Health and Society on the campus of Miami University in Oxford, Ohio.

School Mascots bring entertainment and excitement to so many sports. They can create a shared identity, and even foster a deep sense of community, among fans.

But some school mascots have also been called into question. Especially those that can be seen as stereotypical or insensitive to various cultural subgroups.

This is often a complex issue that continues to spark conversations, and it’s made new headlines in schools in Idaho, Wisconsin, Maine, Florida, and California.

Here in Oxford, Ohio, this issue was also recently at the center of a very passionate debate, around the use of a Native American mascot for the local Talawanda School District.

And the story that followed became a fascinating story that touches upon aspects of moral psychology, the importance of local politics, and the ways others schools may choose to navigate similar challenges.

So today on the podcast, I want to welcome Dr. Sam Morris. He’s a Miami University Clinical Professor of Sport Leadership and Management, and he wrote the report in favor of dropping the Native American mascot and changing the school’s nickname. 

Dr. Morris, thank you so much for being on the podcast.

Sam Morris:

Thanks for having me.

James Loy:

So I'd like to begin by getting some background on this issue, and on the mascot change it. It really seems to have sparked a lot of engagement from a lot of people, especially those who are very passionate on both sides of the issue. So what was the genesis of this long debate and the mascot change, and where does this story really began for anyone who is unfamiliar with what happened?

Sam Morris:

Yeah, well you're right about sparking passion. If you went to the school board meetings, enrollment was way up there for a brief window of time for several months. And then once the issue was settled, enrollment kind of went back down. So the history of the issue, um, I mean it kind of goes back a long way. So back in the 1950s, you know, I'm a local guy, I'm from here. I went to Talawanda High School and strangely ended up right back here as a faculty member. So I've kind of lived through, at least in my lifetime a lot of it, but back in the 1950s, um, the local school districts all consolidated into what's now the Talawanda School District. And so there's always been a kind of a tension between the townships and the city, uh, with regards to the school district. And that sets the context in which some of this argument unfolds.

But, uh, it really picks up last fall, about a year ago, so that would've been the fall of 2018 I actually read in the Oxford observer that the school district was going to reconsider the mascot because they'd been under some pressure. We've had some students express concerns about it. There were some implications about bullying. You know, some people lose sight of the fact that I don't think people always appreciate the fact that Native Americans still live here and in the community. Uh, and so their kids attend our schools and it's, you know, they're fully embedded and entrenched just as anyone else is. And so there were some issues cropping up around that and the school board decided to revisit the issue. It's the fourth or fifth time that they've considered changing it. Uh, so it's not new, but it just kind of came back up again, uh, over some issues that had gone on in the school district. And so they convened a committee with a new superintendent and decided to, to revisit it. So I reached out to the school as an alum, as a local faculty member here. I've written about it, I published an article about this in an academic journal years ago, so I'm pretty well informed on the issue. And I just ... so I did, I asked if I could join the committee and they were looking for balance. They wanted some folks who they thought would be eager to change. They wanted some folks who they thought would be eager to stay the same and they wanted some folks who are undecided. And so that's how I got involved. That's how I got looped into it.

James Loy:

How did they respond to the fact that you are an academic who had already researched this and how did your research fit into the conversation?

Sam Morris:

I don't think most people knew that when I came in for the first committee meetings, you know, we're all introducing ourselves and the way that my identity was framed and it was first and foremost as an alum of the school, uh, I'd been a student athlete as well. I'd played on the football and baseball team and had some success with that. And so that was a big part of it. And I was eager... There's also some, what we call ... local folks call town and gown tension. And so I was eager not to be perceived as someone who was coming from the university to tell the high school how they should do things. Cause that's just presumptuous and condescending and people in the community don't like it. Well it's not necessarily that, but that's how it's perceived sometimes.

So I was careful not to overplay my... The role of my identity that was an academic. But at the same time I had written about it. I Have careful and considered views about it that had gone through the peer review process. And so that indicates some degree of, you know, serious thinking on the topic. So only once the kind of committee got rolling and we were having discussions about, well, what does the research say here? Did that part of who I am kind of get pulled in. Cause it's inevitable at that point, you know, I'm not going to sit there and not mention that I happen to know all the peer reviewed research on this. So that's how that kinda came through. Um, I had written a paper called the trouble with mascots. Simple, simple title. The trouble with mascots. And I'd argued in that paper that the issue was ultimately about stereotyping. Cause you aren't, I mean you are ...that's what mascots do. They're meant to be representative. They are proxies. They're a stand in for some virtue that you want to convey. So the issue to me was not necessarily whether it was a positive or a negative connotation, it was just that it was a connotation. It was just a stereotype. And so that's fine if you want to stereotype the Panthers or the cougars or the tigers or whatever, because it's different notions of doing harm. Uh, but in this case, you're talking about distinct ethnic groups of people who have a particular history that is not exactly something that we should be proud of. Uh, at least European Native American history. There's... most people know that story, so I don't need to get into those details.

So it's different when you're stereotyping an ethnic group, particularly an ethnic group that's been treated the way they have that those groups have been historically. So that's what makes the stereotyping a bit different for me. So I argued in that paper, the real trouble here is that we're stereotyping distinct ethnic groups of people, and no school board would be proud of that. Right? That's not something we wouldn't... I don't think a public school would want to convey to their students that you ought to be stereotyping people. In some sense it's a part of human nature. We do, we do it because we pick up on patterns. It's just the way our brains work. But in some sense it's... That's kind of a, um, it's kind of a glitch in the human psyche, not necessarily a feature of it. So we need to be aware of the fact that we stereotype and account for it. And so in that paper I had argued that part of the trouble is that we're stereotyping those groups of people and we probably shouldn't be doing that.

James Loy:

So I think really quickly we can talk ultimately about what did happen. So the name was officially changed. It went from the Talawanda to Braves to the Talawanda brave. So that S was dropped and then the school will no longer purchase or sell apparel and equipment with that Native American head logo. So when you were thinking about the final changes that you did want to see happen, were there originally more significant changes that were discussed and you decided on dropping the S because that maybe was seen as the most feasible or realistic compromise that could actually be achieved, or what was it initial strategic planning process like?

Sam Morris:

So to speak of the plan is kind of strange because it's a fairly organic process and because we had about 15 or so people on the committee, some of us were pulling the rope one way and some of us are pulling the rope the other way. So it's not exactly like a cohesive plan. But there were definitely... People sort of drew alliances within and the folks who were pulling the same way did strategize about what, what kind of plan there might be. But the whole committee, to their credit people on both sides of the issue did end up putting up several possible solutions to the problem and they included wholesale change. So this committee will convene, we'll make... Recommend a change and we'll produce, you know, three or four viable options. Maybe we can become, you know, at one point we had suggested the idea of the Talawanda Tigers, which references back to the pre-school district merger because before the merger there was Stewart here in town and they were the Steward Tigers. So many people thought like, it's an ode to our history and lineage. We'll go back to that name. So anyway, one of our options was wholesale change, new mascot, everything. A second option was recommend wholesale change, but don't make any explicit recommendations about what. So we just say to the school board, dump the Braves mascot on all of that and find something new. Whatever you want new. It's up to you. So we didn't, you know, we were a little bit less assertive there. The third option was the status quo. Just leave everything the way it is. Uh, the fourth option was to just eliminate the Native American silhouette. Keep the Braves, but just drop the Native American imagery that was associated with it. And then just become the Talawanda brave, which as you know, is ultimately what happened. Ultimately, that's where we sorted out, was on to drop the S. Cause pragmatically the folks who were pushing for a change saw that as the most feasible sell.

James Loy:

Now what about those on the other side? I mean, aside from just keeping the status quo or making no change, what was the viewpoint of those who were opposed?

Sam Morris:

It boiled down to a question of perception? Um, intent versus perception. So the argument always has been that this is meant to be honorable. It's meant to be something to be proud of. We're holding up this culture's... Culture of people. But you know, again, the language isn't precise here. People forget that, you know, you can't just broadly speak of Native Americans. There are hundreds and hundreds of Native nations. I mean, they're very different and diverse within themselves. So it's very weird to say like "Native American culture" when that's not some cleanly unified thing. Like there's, that's a... there's a diaspora there. But anyways, so the argument was it's meant to represent sort of, um, pride, honor, dignity, respect, bravery and so forth. Which again, because the logo is a proxy, it's quite strange that you would imbue so much value into that mark. When very clearly... Like it's very clear what you intrinsically care about is the virtue of bravery. And so in some sense you're really not going to lose anything if you take this mark away and put that mark in because the core thing that you care about is still there. Bravery, courage, all that sort of stuff.

And so that was the argument from the other side was tradition. This has always been a tradition, but it... The idea was that it was intended to be an honor. Of course the tension is intent and perception is not always the same.

James Loy:

Was what you proposed, was that ultimately controversial? Did it raise more contention than you expected it to? Because it seems like a perfect compromise. Like you get to maintain the core of it even with regards to the meaning and then the literal word itself is mostly still there.

Sam Morris:

Yeah. It didn't surprise me that it was still contentious and controversial only because I knew, um, I mean you need to know a good deal about moral psychology, about how people think about ethical decisions because this is kind of a moral issue. And I've read some of the research on that. There's some very good work on it and I know that once people commit, it's very hard to persuade them and any change is unacceptable. So while it does, you know, when we drafted that particular part of the proposal, let's just drop the S, we'll become the Talawanda Brave. It's very minimal rebranding from an economic perspective. Right? You know, there's not a lot of changes you have to make. And we had a very clear plan about how to do that, about phasing everything out. It's not some instantaneous wholesale change that's going to cost tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of dollars. It's a phase out. But even so, it's a very small change Braves to Brave. And if anything, you're just eliminating things that you buy, right? You're eliminating the Native American Indian head, you're eliminating the S, you're reducing those things. So it seems like a no brainer, right? That you can retain the core thing and the transition cost is minimal. But change is change. And I just knew that... I think we all knew that people were just gonna fight it, fight like hell to keep it because it's the thing that they love.

James Loy:

One of the things that you did touch on there very briefly that I wanted to come back to, which was one of the main arguments from the opposing view, you know, those in favor of keeping that the name and mascot, uh, was the cost associated there. And I think one of their leading arguments that I read about, especially how that could relate to things like the turf, which I think was up to $450,000, that's how much it could potentially cost to replace that. But then immediately you already had an answer for that. Like right away, which I thought was great.

Sam Morris:

Yeah. I thought... You know that... I get that. Of course it's right to be concerned about the cost. It's a public school district. Things are expensive, athletics are a high priority, but they're not the highest priority. It's a public school. And so people are right to be concerned about the cost. I think that's fair and right. But at the same time, as you said, we thought of that, and we had a very clear plan about that. Frankly, it was a red herring. I think folks who wanted to keep the mascot the way it was and knew that if they riled up the base about this being very expensive, they'd fight like crazy to keep it. Whether or not that was true. And it was quite strange, you know, the night of the board meeting when we took the vote at one point, it was strange because prior to our committee presenting, the athletic director stood up and one of the things that he said, so he gave his like annual report essentially to the board and at the board meeting, um, in the public session that is, about where things stood. And one of the things he said was, we're hitting... I forget what it was, you know, X year with the field turf. So it's due to be replaced in a year or two. So here he is standing there like saying very literally to the entire group of people, we're going to change this soon, regardless of what we changed it to. If it stays the Talawanda Braves, it's still going to be replaced in a year. And then the very next thing is our committee comes up and says it's going to cost us $1 million to change this field. And I kind of want to say, you're already committed to that, right? That's, that's no new money. But that, that there's something about that sound of hearing like you're gonna spend this much money on this thing, regardless of the fact that it was already laid out in the budget. It just round people up. You know?

And the other thing that got pointed out in that meeting was that there was a school in Oregon that made a bunch of changes. And so we reached out to them and they detailed a lot of expenses and costs that they had had in transitioning away from there. It was the same thing by the way. They were the Braves and they switched to the Brave. So they may be the same change we did. And they talked about all the expenses that they incurred. What didn't get mentioned -- at least not until I went up and spoke -- was the state of Oregon passed legislation to require that. So essentially they were doing it under prescription. They were being told you have to do this. Um, I mean, and they had a certain timeline they had to do it in. And so they did have to make a wholesale change. And of course that's fundamentally dissimilar to the situation we were in. We were under no one's pressure. We're doing this on our own timeline, on our own will, on our own budget. So that pressure of change now and change everything at a high cost simply didn't apply to us. But nonetheless it got, you know, it's in the official minutes of the meetings because it's a scary thing to hear. And it makes people say, no, I don't want to do that.

James Loy:   

Did you look at other schools besides Oregon to get examples of what other schools have done that worked and maybe things they've done that didn't work?

Sam Morris:

Yeah, yeah, we looked around. Most of that... Most of the, I mean, so of course you have popular media stuff about how that has gone on. Most of what I know is the academic literature and most of that is on colleges and universities. So you're not... It's not a great comparison cause it's really not apples to apples. There are things that get pretty different pretty quickly, so it's not all that helpful. And even within that research, if I recall, it's pretty mixed. So yeah, there are costs and benefits and successes and failures in that transition. And we did look at some other schools that had done it, but it's really hard to make good comparisons at the high school level. I mean, that was the flaw with bringing up the Oregon school was it's not a good comparison contextually. It's just very different. What they had to do and what we were considering were not that similar, despite first appearances.

James Loy:

Yeah. For something that seems so similar on the surface. That's interesting. How did the Native American population here perceive this issue? What were their opinions on, on the, you know, proposed change?

Sam Morris: 

So the Native American folks who were in the community came out, they came to the school board meetings, they gave eloquent talks because there's open forum where you can speak. And, uh, I mean some of them I know -- I won't necessarily name drop cause maybe they don't want to have their names... Uh, you know, they would probably want to get away from it, frankly. But anyway, a lot of them came and made pretty eloquent statements about why they thought it should be changed. What I didn't hear at any point, uh, was anyone from that... Those communities arguing in defensive keeping it. Now the folks on the other side did bring in a man from Illinois, who claimed to have Native American heritage, who argued that we should keep it. That was not well received. It was quite controversial. He was added to the, uh, agenda through uncertain means. Like it was kind of unclear how he got there and why he was coming from Illinois. And so that didn't go over very well. But the folks within the community who went and spoke mostly spoke out against it, um, and passionately. And I thought they did... You know, those comments were pretty eloquent. Strangely, you know, at one point I heard someone from the local community, a Native American, who spoke out against it, and then the next person who spoke took the microphone and essentially said, I've never heard anyone complain about this. And it was just flooring to me in that moment to see like, that's literally the last thing you heard, the last word spoken was a Native American lamenting this. And you followed it with, I've never heard anyone speak against this. And I just thought, I mean, you know, when you speak in a public forum, you get nervous and you're not really listening to the people in front of you. But that contrast, like back to back, was really a striking thing to hear. Um, so it was a lot of people talking past each other, frankly, because it's very hard to really listen to these forums for all of us. I mean, anybody.

James Loy:

So what kind of implications do you think this has for schools locally, even nationally? Earlier you mentioned how it's hard to make comparisons with other high schools. Uh, but maybe this now could be an example or a roadmap for high schools who are planning on, or who are forced, to deal with similar issues. I dunno.

Sam Morris:

Yeah, I, you know, it's interesting. So I used to work at the Ohio High School Athletic Association, uh, and one of my former colleagues there, one of the things that he just put together, uh, I think he just did it for fun, honestly. He put together a mascot database. So we have this big database of what every school in Ohio uses. And if you look at some of that data, there's other data too, in addition to his, Ohio has one of the highest concentrations of this. Like, I'm not 100% sure of this, but I think we have more Native American high school mascots in Ohio than any other state in the union. It's like Ohio, Indiana, Pennsylvania. And then I think maybe Utah is right up there, which there's historical reasons why it's those States, but so far we'll only, only the second school in Ohio to change.

Many schools have considered Anderson. I know had considered, you know, Fairfield Indians are right down the road from here. There are an awful lot. And for the most part, I don't think there's the will to change because this is an ugly fight. It's very difficult. People get very emotional and very serious about it, despite it's sort of strangely inherent triviality. It's a pain. I mean, it's hard to do this. Uh, that doesn't mean it's not worth doing, but it's a hard thing to do. What you will notice, and this is one of the things I mentioned to that committee, you don't see anybody going the other way. Like nobody's dropping their, you know, Mustangs mascot to become the Indians or the Braves or the Redskins or whatever. Nobody's going that way. And I think that's telling, I think that kind of reveals a lot about how things are going nationally. You do see a lot of colleges and universities transitioning. That list is probably longer. Of course, there's enormous pressure on the Washington Redskins because they have kind of the most overtly, um, offensive marks and logos. Others seem to sort of, I mean, there's scrutiny everywhere. You can read popular media depictions. They say, Oh, why don't people criticize the Chiefs? They do. You just don't read it. Evidently. Um, the Chiefs get a lot of criticism. The Braves, the Indians, uh, the Chicago Blackhawks, I mean, they all come in for the criticism on those images and marks. But again, it's, it's complicated. You know, there are a lot of stakeholders. Uh, there's a lot on the line and it's hard to make changes like that. So I think you're more likely to see it at the high school level and then the college level and even less likely at the professional level, personally.

James Loy:

I think that's a really good point. You don't see schools...Yeah. Moving the other way. It's generally always more towards that more progressive way of viewing things. And this issue continues to come up too. So I mean, I mentioned, even in the intro to this conversation, you know, schools in five other States right now debating similar changes. So it seems like even if they don't want to make the change now, this may come to their doorstep at some point in time in the future.

Sam Morris:

Well, you know, and that's something I mentioned in those board meetings was, you know, we made the comparison to that school in Oregon, but they were under legal pressure to it. And the biggest argument, one of the biggest arguments against changing the mascot, was this perception of the cost, which again I thought was vastly overstated. But then I couldn't help it point out. Like, if your concern is the cost, you should also be concerned about litigation. You should also be concerned about civil rights cases where folks in the community, who have significant and probably real... Perceived and real harm from this. What if they sue you? I mean, you can't just make that go away. There's no magic wand. Um, it is a legal liability to have that kind of mascot. Or if we end up in a situation, and I don't, I think politically Ohio is just not there. You know, we're not Oregon, we're not Massachusetts, we're not Maine, I think, or some other States that have done this. But, you know, maybe in the future, Ohio says, no more Native American mascots. That's gonna cost us because now we are going to be under, uh, under the gun. So in some sense I tried to tell that committee like, let's just get ahead of that. Let's not wait until we get sued. Let's not wait until the state changes its laws. Let's do it on her own timeline, at our own costs, on own budget, in our own pace. So I've viewed that as definitely a positive reason for change. But I don't know how well that was perceived.

James Loy:

Well, I guess last question then, since you have been through this, what's some advice you would have for schools, schools who want to make this change? Who need to make this change?

Sam Morris: 

Yeah. I think my advice would be to be very realistic about how difficult it's going to be. It is very difficult to wrap your head around how people are tied to these things, how emotionally caught up and bound in these marks and logos and images we are, and the way that we care about sports, which they are worth caring about. Sports are the kind of things that bring vivacity and richness and life and fun to our lives and in some ways make our lives worth living. I mean, they're, they're an expression of human freedom and joy and fun. And so it's right to care about them. But you gotta be careful that you don't attach too much of your caring to the wrong things. Sometimes. I realize that I'm presuming that that's... This is the wrong thing there, but I think I'm right about that one. So part of my advice would be to just be realistic about how difficult it's going to be. And the other thing, and this is kind of a, um, is not something I'm thrilled to to admit. In many ways I knew, I think we all knew that it was going to come down to the school board members, right? We had five school board members. The only people's opinions in that entire process who matter were those five people. Other opinions mattered. But they didn't count. If you catch my distinction there. They mattered. But they didn't count.

Those five people, their opinions counted. And right from the beginning, I approached it, and I know everyone else on that committee did, politically because it's a political process. And when you're thinking politically, you're wondering who you can predict and who you can't. And I knew that there were at least four people of the five who I could predict. I knew that those four people were not going anywhere on their views. Or, well, I guess I didn't know that, but I was very confident. Let's put it that way. And then there was a fifth who I had a pretty good indication. Think we all could have guessed, but we were much less certain. And so in some ways, all the work we did was for the swing vote. We're all working toward the swing vote and I, again, knowing what I know about moral psychology and how resistant people are to changing their ideas and the way they think, I knew it was going to be hard to move somebody on this. And despite knowing all that, you know, there was some more information that I, I just knew... I knew I had to get the answer. I didn't want it, but I asked for a meeting. When all the dust settled in, the vote was done. I asked for a meeting with the, with the swing vote. And so we talked, we sat down, we talked for about 90 minutes. And at the end of it I said, did any of our work have anything to do with your decision? Had you made your mind up before we started? Did we really influence you at all? And I knew what he was going to say and he said, no. And so in some sense it's like we didn't do anything. We didn't do anything. Those five people had made their minds up before. I'm not 100% convinced of that. I think sometimes when you lay out the reasoning and the rationale, sometimes it does confirm your intuition. And that's a good thing.

New Speaker: But it's really hard when you lay out the reasons and rationale and it doesn't confirm your intuition. That's when it's hard to change your mind. So I was a little bit sad to hear that we really hadn't moved the people on the board. But it was... that's not to say it wasn't worth the effort. And that's what I mean. Like, if you want to go into something like that, you need to appreciate how hard it's going to be to make a difference. But that's kinda like, that's a perennial problem with everything. How do you go about tackling a problem, not knowing whether you can make a difference? You never know until you go...till you go in.

The only other thing that might be worth talking about is the fallout, the reaction after the fact. I mean, you asked me about this a little bit, but I was curious to see. So, you know, we had five members on the school board who ultimately, as I said, everyone's opinion mattered, but theirs counted. Three of them. Their terms were up on the school board. And only one of them is coming back. One of the folks who voted to change is not running to be reelected. And then another person who voted to keep it also is not running again. And I have no idea why they decided not to run again. But it's interesting to say the least that after this change, we now have possibly 60% of the school board turning over. And so, as I'm kind of talking to people and listening about how the, the race for school board is going to go, not surprisingly, a lot of it is, you know, there's people running on at least some part of their platform is we're going to overturn this. You know, because not a lot has been changed yet. As I said.

James Loy:   

Is that possible?

Sam Morris:

It's certainly possible. I mean if the school board goes a certain way, they could just as easily vote to go back to the Braves. They'd be the first school to ever go from not a Native American mascot to one. Well not ever, but um, contemporarily I mean. So that pending school board vote, I'll be curious to see if the folks who are running for the three open seats, how many of them stake part of their campaign to: I'm going to go back to the Braves, I'm going to bring this back. Cause there is a certain contingency in the community who I know want that because they perceive that, because not much has happened yet, they could still claw it back, possibly. That matters. Who's on the school board matters. Local politics matter, you know, state politics matter, national politics matter. Politics matter in all this. And so who's on your local school board matters. Who's your board of trustees -- If you're a university -- that matters in these decisions. So the people that you most often vote for those positions, you know, your votes matter. So that's, that's, you know, even though I didn't feel great that maybe we moved the committee, I do feel great that, in some sense, it's like politics still does work, for as dysfunctional as we like to think it often is. I mean, it's real. Your votes matter.

James Loy:

Yeah. I, yeah, that's great. I mean, I think that's why this is really such an interesting story because it's not just about the cultural implications and the changing cultural climate of schools making these progressive changes. I mean, it's also a really great example of what it's like to get involved in local community, political life, you know, in a real way and how these things unfold. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for being on the podcast.

Sam Morris:

Yeah, yeah, it's been fun. It's a fascinating subject and, uh, it consumed a lot of my time last year and I'd be curious to see how it unfolds over time.

James Loy:

Dr. Sam Morris is a clinical professor of sport leadership and management here at Miami University and this is the Reframe Podcast. If you've enjoyed this episode, please share it with everyone, your friends, family, students. There's many more episodes available for free on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts, and thank you so much for listening.