Power, politics, and poinsettias
Lessons learned from Joel Robert Poinsett’s life during America’s infancy
•
Published
Power, politics, and poinsettias
•
Published
I think ultimately, what history does is it gives us this perspective and this sensitivity to people that I hope, can turn into compassion.
Dr. Lindsay Schakenbach Regele
President Greg Crawford
All right, we're ready to go. Hello. I'm Greg Crawford, president of Miami University, and welcome to "In Such a Place", the podcast where we explore the future of higher education and the vital role colleges and universities play in shaping our world. Today we're with Dr. Lindsay Shackenbach Regele, a professor of history whose research focuses on the intersection of political, military, and economic developments between the American Revolution and the Civil War. Her new book "Flowers, Guns, and Money: Joel Roberts Poinsett and the Paradoxes of American Patriotism" examines a prominent figure in early American diplomacy, politics, and cultural exchange. It explores his contributions while revealing his views on nationalism, imperialism, and identity. Welcome to the podcast, Lindsay, it's great to have you here.
Dr. Lindsay Schakenbach Regele
Thanks so much for having me.
President Greg Crawford
Tell us a little bit about yourself, your educational background, and also how long you've been at Miami.
Dr. Lindsay Schakenbach Regele
I'm a professor of history. I teach classes on early American history and the history of capitalism here. I've been at Miami since 2015 right after I finished my PhD in history at Brown University.
President Greg Crawford
That's fantastic. What's your favorite course to teach?
Dr. Lindsay Schakenbach Regele
Oh, my favorite class? Well, so right now, I'm teaching the early American Republic, and I just love the period in between the Revolution and like the end of the War of 1812 because it's when all of the founding decisions get made and we see America become a nation.
President Greg Crawford
Well, your research explores the intersection of political, military, and economic development between the American Revolution and the Civil War. How do these different factors influence each other, and why is it important to look at them together?
Dr. Lindsay Schakenbach Regele
Yeah, so I like to think in terms of national security, and I mean that from both the perspective of physical security and the need for military to protect that, and then economic security. And for Americans living in the 1780s, 90s, early 1800s that meant that, economic security meant independence, to some extent, from Great Britain, whom, of course, they had just achieved independence from. And all of these decisions get hashed out, usually by politicians who are always influenced by different kinds of economic stakeholders, and they're doing things that and so they're one aspect of the security, of course, as I mentioned, is military. And so in order to protect the nation, internally and externally, from both European powers, domestic threats from people who are, say, rebelling against whiskey taxes and of course, Native Americans whose land white Americans have taken. There's a need to build up infrastructure so that troops can travel, so that there are, you know, roads, bridges, etc, and all of that then breeds kind of economic development. And then, of course, there are things like military contracts. And so there's always profits to be had whenever military growth is involved. And so early American history is a history of the intersection, I think, of those interests that then create a society that ends up impacting all sorts of different types of individuals.
President Greg Crawford
In terms of when you're teaching this to students,
Dr. Lindsay Schakenbach Regele
Yeah.
President Greg Crawford
Is there anything surprising that students that are coming from high school to Miami, when they jump into their first kind of history class, or when they kind of sort of move up into their junior and senior year and they're history majors, what surprises them the most about this period between the Revolution and the Civil War?
Dr. Lindsay Schakenbach Regele
Yeah, well, just I think of this because this came up in class the other day, is the fact that students are fascinated, I think, with voting, because even today, we don't necessarily always understand, like, what is the electoral college? And of course, the electoral college as created in the Constitution did not specify that we would have a president and vice president. When the Constitution was written, the framers did not anticipate that there would be political parties, and so the Constitution originally just provides for people casting, electors casting a vote for president, and the runner up would be vice president. That meant that by the time political parties developed, which actually happens within the space of less than a decade, you have, for example, John Adams becomes president. He wins the election in 1796 his political rival Thomas Jefferson is his vice president. And so things like that, I think, are surprising to students,
President Greg Crawford
Yeah. And so in your opinion, what are the most pressing political and cultural questions today that historians studying the early American republic can help us answer?
Dr. Lindsay Schakenbach Regele
I think actually what's really important to have a historical perspective in order to kind of get through, get through daily news cycles and understand kind of politics and culture today is that Americans, although history does not repeat itself exactly, Americans have often felt like they are in times that are tremendously challenging, or moments of crisis or unparalleled situations, and then they come through and things are fine. And these this happens throughout history. And so I think having this historical perspective helps us better understand where we are today, and also can in some ways give us a sense of peace, if that makes sense.
President Greg Crawford
Sure. And then what lesser known debates or tensions within early American capitalism have you uncovered in your work?
Dr. Lindsay Schakenbach Regele
I think when we think about capitalism, we often think about capitalism when it like works best, or in its purest form, means like the government gets the heck out of the way. But something I found when working on my first book, which was called "Manufacturing Advantage," and it was about the development of the firearms and textile industries in the United States, and those are the two main industries that become kind of the hallmark industries of the 19th century in the United States, like the things that they're most known for. We find that actually the federal government played a large role in getting those industries going. Definitely in terms of the firearms industry, because it funded federal armories, it provided contracts to private arms makers. But even too with textiles, there were all sorts of kind of political decisions, tariffs, diplomatic negotiations that opened up markets for American manufactured goods, all of those things that the federal government did then helped create these industries that are part of the trajectory of American capitalism.
President Greg Crawford
Well, it's time to jump into your new book. So "Flowers, Guns, and Money." And can you give us before we get started, just a thumbnail sketch of your book, and also what inspired you to write it or or pick this particular person to write about?
Dr. Lindsay Schakenbach Regele
yeah, so "Flowers, Guns, and Money" follows the life and career of Joel Roberts Poinsett, who was many things, actually. He lived from the American Revolution till the eve of the Civil War. He was a South Carolina enslaver, state legislator, US congressman, our first ambassador to Mexico, he's the namesake for the poinsettia, he was Secretary of War During the bulk of forced Indian removal, and he helped found the Smithsonian. And so I use his this book uses his life as a window into early American national development.
President Greg Crawford
Tell us a little bit before we get started in diving into the book. How did it come to be the poinsettia was named after him?
Dr. Lindsay Schakenbach Regele
While he was in Mexico in the 1820s, he was scouting out mining investment opportunities for American investors in the United States. And it was on one of these trips that he came across, he saw, he remarked on this brilliant plant with this, like, red foliage, and so he wrote a little bit about it. And then he was a really avid botanist. He was, that was kind of one of his hobbies. And so he sent back plant clippings to friends in the United States. And then people began cultivating it in greenhouses, and it was like this kind of specialty flower. And then Americans, by the 1830s were remarking about it. They'd see it at flower shows, and it was, it started to be named after him at that point, they were calling it the Poinsett flower because of him. And then, of course, a family in California figured out a way to commercialize it. And so by the early 20th century, it's this major, you know, Christmas plant that is one of the most economically successful plants globally.
President Greg Crawford
So one of the key aspects of the book is Joel Roberts Poinsett's role in shaping early American politics. And yet, as you mentioned, he's often remembered after the poinsettia. What do you hope readers will take away from a deeper look at his legacy beyond the plant that he's known for?
Dr. Lindsay Schakenbach Regele
One of the things that I really hope readers take away, and this is something that struck me after spending a lot of time in his papers, is that he defies easy characterization. And I think his correspondence with other individuals also suggests that maybe people don't fit as neatly into boxes as we would think or as we would like. And so, for example, Poinsett's a southern enslaver from South Carolina. And so there are things that we might assume about his political beliefs or his decisions regarding slaves, for example. So he's from South Carolina. South Carolina is known for the Nullification Crisis, where there's a tariff, a federal tariff, imposed that will hurt some of them economically. And there's a group called the Nullifiers that threatened to nullify the the tariff. And then also, potentially, there's like the early discussions about secession. And Pointsett, rather than side with the Nullifiers, as one might expect based on his economic interest, he actually is this strong Unionist, and he serves as Andrew Jack-- President Andrew Jackson's point person in Charleston, informing him on Nullifier activity. And partly for that, he's rewarded by the Democratic Party as Secretary of War several years later. But then it's not as if everything he does lines up with the Democrat Party, and his views on federal support for things like science and research that actually lines up more with the opponent party at the time, which was the Whig Party. So there's all these moments in his life where he either does something different than we would expect based upon his position geographically, economically, socially, etc, and he's also sometimes changes positions based on either political pragmatism or economic interest at that time, or maybe sometimes even what he thinks is in the best interests of the nation.
President Greg Crawford
Yeah, I thought that was fascinating from the standpoint of the contemporary lens of how we think about political parties, how he doesn't fit into kind of either one today, if we put that lens on top of it.
Dr. Lindsay Schakenbach Regele
Yeah, I mean, and think about it like, we like to kind of pigeonhole somebody once they come out with one stance on one issue, or once they, you know, identify at some point in time as part of one party. But then people change, or people are complicated, and so they have these different interests that don't always seem to line up neatly. And it's easy to over-characterize, but I think it's important to have this perspective that points US life, I think helps us.
President Greg Crawford
Yeah, and how does Poinsett's life and career serve as a lens for understanding the early American history, particularly regarding nationalism and economic growth and diplomacy?
Dr. Lindsay Schakenbach Regele
What I find, really, I guess, useful, if you will, about his life is that it tracks this like, really fundamental period in US history. Again, this like period from the Revolution to almost up until the Civil War. And so at any moment, we can go in and see what Poinsett is doing and see, "Oh, okay, so this is, this is the United States and Latin American relations," because Poinsett, for example, serves as a secret agent for the US State Department during Latin American independence wars. We can see, "Oh, okay, how do US-Mexican relations get formalized in the 1820s when they, you know, officially established diplomacy." He's on the ground kind of meddling. He actually establishes the United States on not the best footing. And we see the Smithsonian being founded, so we can look, get a sense of, you know, US progress in science, research, museum exhibits. So he, again, he's, we can kind of zoom in on whatever he's doing and learn something about that particular time period.
President Greg Crawford
And what do you think Poinsett's life and complex legacy can teach us about the contradictions in American patriotism during the early Republic?
Dr. Lindsay Schakenbach Regele
Pointsett, like a lot of other statesmen of his time, were motivated both by a love for their country and a belief they were doing what was in its best interest, and their own self interest and their own personal business dealings, their own political connections. And so there are occasional moments where Poinsett has, he has some pretty close some friends in England, wealthy bankers and investors. And he occasionally does things that privilege their economic interests over, say, overall US interests when the United States is in some kind of conflict with Great Britain. So there's always this love of love of nation and love of self. And those two things are, I think, always at play then and now.
President Greg Crawford
But how, let's talk about now? How does sort of Poinsett's brand of patriotism manifest itself in American politics today?
Dr. Lindsay Schakenbach Regele
So I think his so his patriotism, part of that gets expressed in this political pragmatism and so making decisions based upon, again, not only what you think is in the best interest of the country, but also what you think is most what your maybe constituents want you to to do. And so just one kind of semi-recent examples from before the last, this past presidential election, Kamala Harris needing to kind of skew to more moderate voters, and so changing some of her stances on immigration, just to take one example. And so that type of decision making, I think, begins in Pointsett's era.
President Greg Crawford
Yeah, you mentioned this sort of Poinsett's use of political influence for private gain. I was just curious. Is there any lessons learned that can be drawn from this history?
Dr. Lindsay Schakenbach Regele
I suppose. I'm not sure if there's any good lessons we can draw, other than an awareness that individuals, then and now are able to use their status in ways that benefit, hopefully, the broader American society and also their own kind of financial interests, like for Poinsett, using his position as ambassador in Mexico to work out mining companies that would end up profiting himself and his investor friends in the United States, for example, and using his position as Secretary of War to secure a prime tract of land for himself in Texas, where a lot of people were investing.
President Greg Crawford
So given the complexities and contradictions you've uncovered in your research, how do you think understanding early American history can inform our approach to addressing today's political and cultural challenges?
Dr. Lindsay Schakenbach Regele
The more we understand these complexities and contradictions, I hope we also develop a kind of historical sensibility that then enables us to have compassion for actors in the past and then extend that compassion to people around us and to politicians making various decisions when faced with various challenges. I think ultimately, that's what histor -- history does, is it gives us this perspective and this sensitivity to people that, again, I hope, can turn into compassion.
President Greg Crawford
And then you know, in terms of our own curriculum and the Global Miami Plan, and how we really want to sort of engage students in the critical thinking process. If you look at your work here and this most recent book that you've written, and knowing the complexities and contradictions that we see in Poinsett's life, how might you explain that to students to critically think about this book that you've just written?
Dr. Lindsay Schakenbach Regele
So as somebody who has studied people in this early American Republic era, and especially some of these statesmen like Joel Roberts Poinsett, all of them read all the time. They actually had their books shipped places before they arrived. And they read widely in different, what we would call disciplines. And so they all were men of, you know, philosophy and the natural sciences and political economy. And so I think it's great that Miami students have this opportunity to have a well rounded education here, and that that is something that can inform all of your decisions as you know, a private citizen, as an employee, as an employer, and whatever you go on to do in life.
President Greg Crawford
Is there lessons learned? You know, we love to extend the work of students, you know, to think about moral and ethical reasoning. Is there things in this period between the Revolution and the Civil War that students really pick up upon and learn in that realm?
Dr. Lindsay Schakenbach Regele
Well, so from this period in between the revolution the Civil War, the I guess number one, or maybe the two biggest things that today are morally and ethically egregious, I think to all of us, are slavery and essentially attempted genocide of native peoples. And there were many, many, many individuals, even as it's easy to say, oh well, that was just the norm at the time, there are many individuals who opposed those things, who spoke out against it, and who ultimately worked, at least in terms of slavery, to end the system. And so I think people, then and now right grapple with moral and ethical issues all of the time, and I hope we can look to those individuals in the past to I don't know, help give us courage going forward.
President Greg Crawford
Well, thank you so much, Lindsay for sharing your research. History is so fascinating because it's full of interesting stories and always helps us understand the present. And congratulations on your book. It's just fascinating. We hope people pick it up and give it a read, because it's just awesome. So congratulations onthat.
Dr. Lindsay Schakenbach Regele
Thank you so much, and thank you so so much for having me today.
President Greg Crawford
Of course, it was wonderful to have this discussion. I enjoyed reading the book too. I read about half of it that I sat it down for about a month and got the other half in before my interview with you today. So congratulations. Thank you. Thanks for listening to this episode of "In Such a Place" from Miami University. Stay tuned for more great episodes with more great guests wherever podcasts are found.
All right, we're ready to go. Hello. I'm Greg Crawford, president of Miami University, and welcome to "In Such a Place", the podcast where we explore the future of higher education and the vital role colleges and universities play in shaping our world. Today we're with Dr. Lindsay Shackenbach Regele, a professor of history whose research focuses on the intersection of political, military, and economic developments between the American Revolution and the Civil War. Her new book "Flowers, Guns, and Money: Joel Roberts Poinsett and the Paradoxes of American Patriotism" examines a prominent figure in early American diplomacy, politics, and cultural exchange. It explores his contributions while revealing his views on nationalism, imperialism, and identity. Welcome to the podcast, Lindsay, it's great to have you here.
Dr. Lindsay Schakenbach Regele
Thanks so much for having me.
President Greg Crawford
Tell us a little bit about yourself, your educational background, and also how long you've been at Miami.
Dr. Lindsay Schakenbach Regele
I'm a professor of history. I teach classes on early American history and the history of capitalism here. I've been at Miami since 2015 right after I finished my PhD in history at Brown University.
President Greg Crawford
That's fantastic. What's your favorite course to teach?
Dr. Lindsay Schakenbach Regele
Oh, my favorite class? Well, so right now, I'm teaching the early American Republic, and I just love the period in between the Revolution and like the end of the War of 1812 because it's when all of the founding decisions get made and we see America become a nation.
President Greg Crawford
Well, your research explores the intersection of political, military, and economic development between the American Revolution and the Civil War. How do these different factors influence each other, and why is it important to look at them together?
Dr. Lindsay Schakenbach Regele
Yeah, so I like to think in terms of national security, and I mean that from both the perspective of physical security and the need for military to protect that, and then economic security. And for Americans living in the 1780s, 90s, early 1800s that meant that, economic security meant independence, to some extent, from Great Britain, whom, of course, they had just achieved independence from. And all of these decisions get hashed out, usually by politicians who are always influenced by different kinds of economic stakeholders, and they're doing things that and so they're one aspect of the security, of course, as I mentioned, is military. And so in order to protect the nation, internally and externally, from both European powers, domestic threats from people who are, say, rebelling against whiskey taxes and of course, Native Americans whose land white Americans have taken. There's a need to build up infrastructure so that troops can travel, so that there are, you know, roads, bridges, etc, and all of that then breeds kind of economic development. And then, of course, there are things like military contracts. And so there's always profits to be had whenever military growth is involved. And so early American history is a history of the intersection, I think, of those interests that then create a society that ends up impacting all sorts of different types of individuals.
President Greg Crawford
In terms of when you're teaching this to students,
Dr. Lindsay Schakenbach Regele
Yeah.
President Greg Crawford
Is there anything surprising that students that are coming from high school to Miami, when they jump into their first kind of history class, or when they kind of sort of move up into their junior and senior year and they're history majors, what surprises them the most about this period between the Revolution and the Civil War?
Dr. Lindsay Schakenbach Regele
Yeah, well, just I think of this because this came up in class the other day, is the fact that students are fascinated, I think, with voting, because even today, we don't necessarily always understand, like, what is the electoral college? And of course, the electoral college as created in the Constitution did not specify that we would have a president and vice president. When the Constitution was written, the framers did not anticipate that there would be political parties, and so the Constitution originally just provides for people casting, electors casting a vote for president, and the runner up would be vice president. That meant that by the time political parties developed, which actually happens within the space of less than a decade, you have, for example, John Adams becomes president. He wins the election in 1796 his political rival Thomas Jefferson is his vice president. And so things like that, I think, are surprising to students,
President Greg Crawford
Yeah. And so in your opinion, what are the most pressing political and cultural questions today that historians studying the early American republic can help us answer?
Dr. Lindsay Schakenbach Regele
I think actually what's really important to have a historical perspective in order to kind of get through, get through daily news cycles and understand kind of politics and culture today is that Americans, although history does not repeat itself exactly, Americans have often felt like they are in times that are tremendously challenging, or moments of crisis or unparalleled situations, and then they come through and things are fine. And these this happens throughout history. And so I think having this historical perspective helps us better understand where we are today, and also can in some ways give us a sense of peace, if that makes sense.
President Greg Crawford
Sure. And then what lesser known debates or tensions within early American capitalism have you uncovered in your work?
Dr. Lindsay Schakenbach Regele
I think when we think about capitalism, we often think about capitalism when it like works best, or in its purest form, means like the government gets the heck out of the way. But something I found when working on my first book, which was called "Manufacturing Advantage," and it was about the development of the firearms and textile industries in the United States, and those are the two main industries that become kind of the hallmark industries of the 19th century in the United States, like the things that they're most known for. We find that actually the federal government played a large role in getting those industries going. Definitely in terms of the firearms industry, because it funded federal armories, it provided contracts to private arms makers. But even too with textiles, there were all sorts of kind of political decisions, tariffs, diplomatic negotiations that opened up markets for American manufactured goods, all of those things that the federal government did then helped create these industries that are part of the trajectory of American capitalism.
President Greg Crawford
Well, it's time to jump into your new book. So "Flowers, Guns, and Money." And can you give us before we get started, just a thumbnail sketch of your book, and also what inspired you to write it or or pick this particular person to write about?
Dr. Lindsay Schakenbach Regele
yeah, so "Flowers, Guns, and Money" follows the life and career of Joel Roberts Poinsett, who was many things, actually. He lived from the American Revolution till the eve of the Civil War. He was a South Carolina enslaver, state legislator, US congressman, our first ambassador to Mexico, he's the namesake for the poinsettia, he was Secretary of War During the bulk of forced Indian removal, and he helped found the Smithsonian. And so I use his this book uses his life as a window into early American national development.
President Greg Crawford
Tell us a little bit before we get started in diving into the book. How did it come to be the poinsettia was named after him?
Dr. Lindsay Schakenbach Regele
While he was in Mexico in the 1820s, he was scouting out mining investment opportunities for American investors in the United States. And it was on one of these trips that he came across, he saw, he remarked on this brilliant plant with this, like, red foliage, and so he wrote a little bit about it. And then he was a really avid botanist. He was, that was kind of one of his hobbies. And so he sent back plant clippings to friends in the United States. And then people began cultivating it in greenhouses, and it was like this kind of specialty flower. And then Americans, by the 1830s were remarking about it. They'd see it at flower shows, and it was, it started to be named after him at that point, they were calling it the Poinsett flower because of him. And then, of course, a family in California figured out a way to commercialize it. And so by the early 20th century, it's this major, you know, Christmas plant that is one of the most economically successful plants globally.
President Greg Crawford
So one of the key aspects of the book is Joel Roberts Poinsett's role in shaping early American politics. And yet, as you mentioned, he's often remembered after the poinsettia. What do you hope readers will take away from a deeper look at his legacy beyond the plant that he's known for?
Dr. Lindsay Schakenbach Regele
One of the things that I really hope readers take away, and this is something that struck me after spending a lot of time in his papers, is that he defies easy characterization. And I think his correspondence with other individuals also suggests that maybe people don't fit as neatly into boxes as we would think or as we would like. And so, for example, Poinsett's a southern enslaver from South Carolina. And so there are things that we might assume about his political beliefs or his decisions regarding slaves, for example. So he's from South Carolina. South Carolina is known for the Nullification Crisis, where there's a tariff, a federal tariff, imposed that will hurt some of them economically. And there's a group called the Nullifiers that threatened to nullify the the tariff. And then also, potentially, there's like the early discussions about secession. And Pointsett, rather than side with the Nullifiers, as one might expect based on his economic interest, he actually is this strong Unionist, and he serves as Andrew Jack-- President Andrew Jackson's point person in Charleston, informing him on Nullifier activity. And partly for that, he's rewarded by the Democratic Party as Secretary of War several years later. But then it's not as if everything he does lines up with the Democrat Party, and his views on federal support for things like science and research that actually lines up more with the opponent party at the time, which was the Whig Party. So there's all these moments in his life where he either does something different than we would expect based upon his position geographically, economically, socially, etc, and he's also sometimes changes positions based on either political pragmatism or economic interest at that time, or maybe sometimes even what he thinks is in the best interests of the nation.
President Greg Crawford
Yeah, I thought that was fascinating from the standpoint of the contemporary lens of how we think about political parties, how he doesn't fit into kind of either one today, if we put that lens on top of it.
Dr. Lindsay Schakenbach Regele
Yeah, I mean, and think about it like, we like to kind of pigeonhole somebody once they come out with one stance on one issue, or once they, you know, identify at some point in time as part of one party. But then people change, or people are complicated, and so they have these different interests that don't always seem to line up neatly. And it's easy to over-characterize, but I think it's important to have this perspective that points US life, I think helps us.
President Greg Crawford
Yeah, and how does Poinsett's life and career serve as a lens for understanding the early American history, particularly regarding nationalism and economic growth and diplomacy?
Dr. Lindsay Schakenbach Regele
What I find, really, I guess, useful, if you will, about his life is that it tracks this like, really fundamental period in US history. Again, this like period from the Revolution to almost up until the Civil War. And so at any moment, we can go in and see what Poinsett is doing and see, "Oh, okay, so this is, this is the United States and Latin American relations," because Poinsett, for example, serves as a secret agent for the US State Department during Latin American independence wars. We can see, "Oh, okay, how do US-Mexican relations get formalized in the 1820s when they, you know, officially established diplomacy." He's on the ground kind of meddling. He actually establishes the United States on not the best footing. And we see the Smithsonian being founded, so we can look, get a sense of, you know, US progress in science, research, museum exhibits. So he, again, he's, we can kind of zoom in on whatever he's doing and learn something about that particular time period.
President Greg Crawford
And what do you think Poinsett's life and complex legacy can teach us about the contradictions in American patriotism during the early Republic?
Dr. Lindsay Schakenbach Regele
Pointsett, like a lot of other statesmen of his time, were motivated both by a love for their country and a belief they were doing what was in its best interest, and their own self interest and their own personal business dealings, their own political connections. And so there are occasional moments where Poinsett has, he has some pretty close some friends in England, wealthy bankers and investors. And he occasionally does things that privilege their economic interests over, say, overall US interests when the United States is in some kind of conflict with Great Britain. So there's always this love of love of nation and love of self. And those two things are, I think, always at play then and now.
President Greg Crawford
But how, let's talk about now? How does sort of Poinsett's brand of patriotism manifest itself in American politics today?
Dr. Lindsay Schakenbach Regele
So I think his so his patriotism, part of that gets expressed in this political pragmatism and so making decisions based upon, again, not only what you think is in the best interest of the country, but also what you think is most what your maybe constituents want you to to do. And so just one kind of semi-recent examples from before the last, this past presidential election, Kamala Harris needing to kind of skew to more moderate voters, and so changing some of her stances on immigration, just to take one example. And so that type of decision making, I think, begins in Pointsett's era.
President Greg Crawford
Yeah, you mentioned this sort of Poinsett's use of political influence for private gain. I was just curious. Is there any lessons learned that can be drawn from this history?
Dr. Lindsay Schakenbach Regele
I suppose. I'm not sure if there's any good lessons we can draw, other than an awareness that individuals, then and now are able to use their status in ways that benefit, hopefully, the broader American society and also their own kind of financial interests, like for Poinsett, using his position as ambassador in Mexico to work out mining companies that would end up profiting himself and his investor friends in the United States, for example, and using his position as Secretary of War to secure a prime tract of land for himself in Texas, where a lot of people were investing.
President Greg Crawford
So given the complexities and contradictions you've uncovered in your research, how do you think understanding early American history can inform our approach to addressing today's political and cultural challenges?
Dr. Lindsay Schakenbach Regele
The more we understand these complexities and contradictions, I hope we also develop a kind of historical sensibility that then enables us to have compassion for actors in the past and then extend that compassion to people around us and to politicians making various decisions when faced with various challenges. I think ultimately, that's what histor -- history does, is it gives us this perspective and this sensitivity to people that, again, I hope, can turn into compassion.
President Greg Crawford
And then you know, in terms of our own curriculum and the Global Miami Plan, and how we really want to sort of engage students in the critical thinking process. If you look at your work here and this most recent book that you've written, and knowing the complexities and contradictions that we see in Poinsett's life, how might you explain that to students to critically think about this book that you've just written?
Dr. Lindsay Schakenbach Regele
So as somebody who has studied people in this early American Republic era, and especially some of these statesmen like Joel Roberts Poinsett, all of them read all the time. They actually had their books shipped places before they arrived. And they read widely in different, what we would call disciplines. And so they all were men of, you know, philosophy and the natural sciences and political economy. And so I think it's great that Miami students have this opportunity to have a well rounded education here, and that that is something that can inform all of your decisions as you know, a private citizen, as an employee, as an employer, and whatever you go on to do in life.
President Greg Crawford
Is there lessons learned? You know, we love to extend the work of students, you know, to think about moral and ethical reasoning. Is there things in this period between the Revolution and the Civil War that students really pick up upon and learn in that realm?
Dr. Lindsay Schakenbach Regele
Well, so from this period in between the revolution the Civil War, the I guess number one, or maybe the two biggest things that today are morally and ethically egregious, I think to all of us, are slavery and essentially attempted genocide of native peoples. And there were many, many, many individuals, even as it's easy to say, oh well, that was just the norm at the time, there are many individuals who opposed those things, who spoke out against it, and who ultimately worked, at least in terms of slavery, to end the system. And so I think people, then and now right grapple with moral and ethical issues all of the time, and I hope we can look to those individuals in the past to I don't know, help give us courage going forward.
President Greg Crawford
Well, thank you so much, Lindsay for sharing your research. History is so fascinating because it's full of interesting stories and always helps us understand the present. And congratulations on your book. It's just fascinating. We hope people pick it up and give it a read, because it's just awesome. So congratulations onthat.
Dr. Lindsay Schakenbach Regele
Thank you so much, and thank you so so much for having me today.
President Greg Crawford
Of course, it was wonderful to have this discussion. I enjoyed reading the book too. I read about half of it that I sat it down for about a month and got the other half in before my interview with you today. So congratulations. Thank you. Thanks for listening to this episode of "In Such a Place" from Miami University. Stay tuned for more great episodes with more great guests wherever podcasts are found.
Established in 1809, Miami University is located in Oxford, Ohio, with regional campuses in Hamilton and Middletown, a learning center in West Chester, and a European study center in Luxembourg. Interested in learning more about the history department? Visit their websites for more information.
