Steven Tuck
It's incredibly important to know how we got where we are. We have to know where we came from, and I think the ancient world does that for us. You know, culture changes, technology changes, everything speeds up, but people are largely the same - their needs, their desires, their anxieties, their problems, their conflicts. These are all pretty much the same.

President Greg Crawford
Hello, I'm Greg Crawford, president of Miami University, and welcome to "In Such a Place," the podcast where we explore the future of higher education and the vital role colleges and universities play in shaping our world. Ancient societies can still offer modern society insights into how people survived, adapted, and rebuilt in the face of crisis. Joining us is Steven Tuck, professor of classics at Miami University and author of the new book, "Escape from Pompeii." Dr. Tuck's research uncovers the lives of the survivors of the Mount Vesuvius eruption and shows how people rebuilt families and communities in the aftermath of disaster. By combining archeology, ancient texts, and digital research, he brings the ancient world vividly to life while revealing lessons that remain deeply relevant to our society today. Welcome to the podcast, Steve. It's great to have you here.

Steven Tuck
Thank you for having me. I was I'm very excited to be here.

President Greg Crawford
For anyone wondering why studying the ancient world matters in 2025, how do you usually answer that question, and what does ancient history help us to see about ourselves today.

Steven Tuck
Well, I think, particularly as Americans, you know, studying the ancient world is almost a no-brainer because so much of our culture is our government, our law, our our buildings, and our architecture. The design of the city of Oxford is consciously and deliberately based on that of the ancient world, and to really understand our own culture, I think we have to understand those influences, particularly the Greek and Roman worlds. I think it really matters to us as Americans, particularly. I think it's incredibly important to know how we got where we are. We have to know where we came from, and I think the ancient world does that for us.

President Greg Crawford
Exactly. So why do you think ancient history continues to resonate so strongly, even as the world feels more technology advances and also such a fast-moving place we're in today?

Steven Tuck
Things do seem to be moving fast, but there are some things that I think are constants, and one of those are people. It's human nature. Culture changes, technology changes, everything speeds up, but people are largely the same. Their needs, their desires, their anxieties, their problems, and their conflicts are all pretty much the same. So, when we read about, or think about, or talk about the ancient Roman Republic and the conflicts and crises that they had governing a large country essentially, I think that can't help but resonate with us.

President Greg Crawford
Oh, that's fantastic! And so, thinking about your classes and all the years you've taught here and all the students that you've taught, how do you see students changing, changing their mindset or changing the way they think after they encounter the ancient world for the first time in your classroom.

Steven Tuck
So I mainly teach non-majors, and what I see is that students realize that they can still be a business major, or a political science major, or a secondary social studies education major, and continue to learn about the ancient world, continue to study history and classics and things that they're interested in. I really like that moment when they realize that they can get their business degree or their poli sci degree, but then they can also be lifelong learners and continue to read and to think about this material, and it's there for them, and it can be there for the rest of their lives. I love that moment when students have that realization.

President Greg Crawford
You've taught a lot of students over your years here at Miami, and when you get them in the classroom, do they have a background in ancient history and classics coming from high school, or for the most part is that their first introduction to it?

Steven Tuck
For most, it's their first introduction. I have a few students who have had high school Latin - bless those high school Latin teachers out there still fighting the good fight, and some students that have read about Greek mythology. I teach a mythology class once a year, and there's always a few students that come in knowing some stories, and they're great to have in class because they're excited and they have some background. But for almost everybody, it's their first introduction, besides a little something in seventh or eighth grade.

President Greg Crawford
That's great. So your research draws on inscriptions, art, historical, and large digital databases. How has technology changed what you do for research over the years?

Steven Tuck
This project would not have been possible without technology. When I first started, I had that postdoc at Ohio State, and was in studying ancient inscriptions. It was all using books. Starting in the 19th century, there were a bunch of scholars that started to collect inscriptions and put them together in huge, enormous collections of printed volumes, and that's where we started from. About 20 years ago, people started digitizing those and creating searchable online databases, which made this type of work possible. I looked at tens of thousands of Latin inscriptions online, one at a time, searching for survivors. You know, searching for names, searching for people, and I couldn't have done that with the books. It would have taken me far longer. Now of course, AI has changed things too. The digital databases are searchable and they're there, but I still have to go through them now. With AI, it might be possible to speed that up even a little more.

President Greg Crawford
Well, that's great. Just from your most recent book here, "Escape from Pompeii," was it when you looked at the percentage of things that you studied and drew from that were digital versus those that were more classically text or paper oriented in the archives, what would that percentage be, roughly speaking?

Steven Tuck
Oh, well it shifted dramatically at the start of this project. It was probably 90% paper, but by the end, it was almost 100% digital. The digital databases really just became so much better over the years and so much more authoritative, and that really has dominated. Now I still go back to the printed sources to check things because people make mistakes when they're entering data. So I've checked some things and made corrections, and I've contributed to these databases myself.

President Greg Crawford
Oh, that's great!

Steven Tuck
Oh yeah, yeah. I mean, you want to give back, right?

President Greg Crawford
Just a curiosity question: who does all the digitizing? Is that individual libraries, or are there organizations or foundations that are working more in the classic text area?

Steven Tuck
So it's a range. There are actually multiple competing databases. In Germany, there's a huge effort to digitize ancient inscriptions, and it's funded by a German industrialist who decided to do that in this country. The Packard Humanities Institute has paid for a lot of it. So every time you buy a Hewlett Packard printer, you know that some of that money is going toward digitizing Greek inscriptions, for example, and that a lot of it is volunteer work.

President Greg Crawford
Oh my gosh!

Steven Tuck
I've spent many hours inputting these things to add to these databases.

President Greg Crawford
Oh my gosh, it's really had an impact on research, the digitization piece.

Steven Tuck
It has. It's really, and it's it's made it not just so that I can research, but I can do it collaboratively with people remotely. On this project, I had a couple of friends in Italy who I was working with, and they helped me out. We could share things through the online portal.

President Greg Crawford
Oh, that's great! Oh my goodness!

Steven Tuck
Make collaboration internationally available.

President Greg Crawford
Let's jump into your latest book, "Escape from Pompeii." The one question I love to ask scholars is: when you started the book, there was probably one or two or three questions you really wanted to answer, and then as you got through the research piece and elements, and you started to learn more about what you're trying to answer, did those questions evolve, or did you run into some new things that you uncovered that took you in a different direction?

Steven Tuck
That is a great question because that's exactly what happened. Everything changed. When I started this book, I thought I wanted to know if I can say if anybody survived the eruption of Vesuvius, and very quickly I found out yes. Well, very quickly in scholarly terms, like three years of research, I was able to say yes, people got out. But then I was able to now that I answered that yes/no question, I was able to change the questions and ask I think some deeper questions. Well, what were their lives like? Did they suffer? Did they move to slums or suburbs? You know, did they integrate with their new communities? Are they, you know, are they in some refugee camp? I mean, what happened to these people, and can we tell those stories? So it became about telling the stories of the people who I found.

President Greg Crawford
Oh, that's great!

Steven Tuck
And so it really changed a lot. Yeah.

President Greg Crawford
Absolutely. So another question is: you're the scholar on this area, and so you know those of us in other fields are thinking through how you possibly knew somebody was a survivor or not. What were the signals in your research or the literature or the text that you were looking at, that you knew they were a survivor from Pompeii and if they moved or relocated after the eruption.

Steven Tuck
That's a really important question. Fortunately for this project, like us, the Romans had family names.

President Greg Crawford
Oh.

Steven Tuck
So they had persistent family names that carried on, you know, across generations. Unlike other ancient peoples, the Greeks, the Hebrews, they don't have family names, but the Romans did. So I could trace families, and more than that, even the period we're talking about in the first century, most male members of immediate families used the same first name, and so it wasn't just a last name; they used the same first name. It was like when I was doing genealogy research on my mom's family, and I came upon one generation, and there were four John Kennedys.

President Greg Crawford
Oh my goodness!

Steven Tuck
Every every male of that generation was named John Kennedy. Ah, made a little tough to tell them apart, but I could trace those. And in the Roman case, you know, there's very few Roman first names, and so you know, one branch of a family, Caechelius family, will only use Lucius, whereas a different branch in a different city will use a different first name. So I can tell them apart, and I can trace them.

President Greg Crawford
Oh, that's fantastic!

Steven Tuck
Find people that move.

President Greg Crawford
That's intriguing. That's awesome.

Steven Tuck
Yeah, it made it possible.

President Greg Crawford
And that's what we should make sure our listeners know the years we're talking about here with Pompeii, and so after the eruption, and then also how long did you look past the eruption?

Steven Tuck
So the eruption was in 79 A.D. or C.E. if you prefer. Yeah, and so I looked at Pompeii and its sister city, Herculaneum, at records of names from essentially 15 years before the eruption. I decided if people were at one of those cities in the last years, and then I find them later on somewhere else, that's a survivor.

President Greg Crawford
Oh, I see.

Steven Tuck
That's somebody who got out, and so what I tried to do was to find people that were documented at Pompeii within 15 years before the eruption, and then similarly afterwards. It wasn't always possible. Sometimes the afterwards ones were 20 years later, where families got out, moved, and then left a record. Most records that people leave are epitaphs, so you know they don't die immediately; they die 20 years later. So I tried to stay within that range of looking for people.

President Greg Crawford
And just a curiosity question too for our listeners: When you think about when you started this book, and we know you're the first one out there to jump into looking for survivors at Pompeii, why? What triggered you to look in that direction? Because nobody else tried to answer that question before. It was brand new.

Steven Tuck
It's yeah, it's wild. I think because it's is so unbelievably tedious and only possible because of these online databases, really, that nobody has done it before. But this is great because it gives me an opportunity to give a shout out to my undergraduate advisor.

President Greg Crawford
Oh, there you go.

Steven Tuck
All right, so we're up on the Acropolis, the high part of a Greek city in southern Italy, Cumae.

President Greg Crawford
Yeah.

Steven Tuck
And it's me and my undergraduate advisor and a bunch of other undergraduates, and he asked us, "Why do you think the emperor rebuilt this city in the 90s A.D." And we all went, "I don't know." And he said, "Well, let me ask you a second question then, what happened to the people that got out from Pompeii?" It never occurred to us that anybody had gotten out. And he said, "I think they're here. I think they rebuilt this city for these people." He based that just on all this new construction in the 15 years after the eruption. And I thought this had never occurred to me, of course, and I thought I would like to see if I can answer that question. So rather than just looking for buildings, I started looking for people.

President Greg Crawford
Oh wow!

Steven Tuck
Tracing names, and that took about 10 years. But, he was right. Turns out, a lot of them did move to that formerly quiet city of Cumae, which had a major urban renewal in 15 years after the eruption, Roman government stepped in and essentially rebuilt the city.

President Greg Crawford
I want to go back to one thing just to emphasize this for our listeners. But a few decades ago, without these digital versions of what you were looking at, the text and so forth, this project would have not been possible. Is that a fair statement? It would have taken a long time.

Steven Tuck
I think it would have been possible, but it would have taken decades.

President Greg Crawford
Decades, oh my goodness.

Steven Tuck
-- because I would be going through books, one listing of an inscription at a time, and it's not searchable, and it would have required me to essentially remember every name and then look for them. I don't think I have the brain power for that - to remember you know, 20,000 names and keep them straight and recognize when I see one.

President Greg Crawford
And do you have an estimate on the the amount of survivors?

Steven Tuck
Yes, in this project, the Pompeii Survivors Project, as we call it, I think I have found about 3000.

President Greg Crawford
Oh my goodness!

Steven Tuck
Okay, but I've only been able to find people with Roman family names who move to a new community. Okay, I think what's missing here are the people who moved in with other family members, which a lot of People do after natural disasters. You know, my house burns down or gets destroyed by a volcano. I'm moving in with my brother, and we have the same last name, so that wouldn't appear in the community, right? It would just be another Tuck. So I think what I'm seeing actually is a minority. It's the people that moved places where they didn't have immediate family. So, it's the others who move where they have family that I haven't yet found.

President Greg Crawford
Oh my goodness! So you know, many people think the eruption resulted in just everyone getting and perishing in that disaster. But when did you first realize that many people actually survived the eruption in Vesuvius? Did you start off with thinking it was a few, then it got bigger and bigger, or was this a hypothesis at the front end that it was a large number?

Steven Tuck
That first one, I thought when I started this about 10 years ago, I was going to find three rich guys, okay, who had left, you know, documentation of their existence at Pompeii, and then I could find them having moved somewhere else and then left records somewhere else, and I thought I'd find three rich guys, and I'd have this whole thing wrapped up in about 18 months. Instead, I just kept finding people-rich people, poor people, middle-class merchants, formerly enslaved people, men, women, all ages. I mean, really, it ran ran the gamut, and I was very surprised by that. So it expanded as I went, and it really changed the scope.

President Greg Crawford
Yeah, and just when you're researching and you're doing your scholarship on these things, maybe share with people how many times you switched or pivot during your research, because I think it's just interesting where you start, where you end, and we've already heard a few of the elements of starting with a few rich rich guys, so to speak, and then it grew into a much larger community.

Steven Tuck
Yeah. So I thought at first, as I said, I would find a few rich guys. So I started looking at the names associated with these enormous rural villas around Pompeii and Herculaneum, because the Bay of Naples is just lined with these luxurious elite estates, essentially, and I thought I would find a few of those people. I did find a few of them, but then it became clear that those estates had been cleared out. The strong boxes are empty, and the household shrines are empty. People had time to take stuff, and I realized that pattern also occurred in the cities themselves, and people in the cities cleared out their personal possessions, and their mementos, and things that mattered to them, and so I began to shift focus there.

President Greg Crawford
And then tell us about these survivors, and then the lives they led afterwards. What did they rebuild? What did they recreate? Was it policies and laws and different things, or did they get absorbed in by new communities?

Steven Tuck
So it's interesting to me that again, it's a whole range. There are some people that made it out and apparently did worse than they had done. We see that at Pompeii, there's one family, the Fabius family. They have money. They make public dedications to the gods. They seem to be wine merchants. They're doing all right, and then the daughter makes it out to a nearby community, and she marries a gladiator.

President Greg Crawford
Oh my goodness!

Steven Tuck
Yeah, boy, you wouldn't want your daughter to marry a gladiator. I don't want my daughter to marry a gladiator. Yeah, and so it's a real step down for her, not just a gladiator, but the least regarded category of gladiators. She's really taken a step down. But other people seem to move to new communities, and they just lean into their new communities. There's three families that moved to a nearby commercial harbor. It's the second largest city in Italy at the time, called Puteoli, and all three of these families are commercial families. They're wine merchants and commodities merchants, and they all name th first son at Puteoli, Puteolanus.

President Greg Crawford
Oh my goodness!

Steven Tuck
The guy from Puteoli. So they name their kid for their new city.

President Greg Crawford
Oh wow!

Steven Tuck
You know, it's like I guess being a refugee here and naming your daughter America when you come to the U.S., you know, and then that kid, or the next generation, run for public office.

President Greg Crawford
Oh my goodness!

Steven Tuck
And they make religious dedications, and they really just integrate into this new community. You know, they become active members of civic government, and you know, religiously active, and they join sort of fraternal organizations, and they just roll with it. They restart their businesses, and so there's a range - some do well, others not so much.

President Greg Crawford
So you've compared Pompeii survivors to modern refugees and disaster survivors. What patterns of displacement, resilience, and also rebuilding repeat across different times?

Steven Tuck
Well, I think a lot of survivors of natural disasters or refugees face a lot of trauma, and one of the things I see repeatedly in ancient and modern is religious dedications. There's something about surviving a natural disaster or a traumatic experience that really seems to encourage people to not just have faith, but to make public statements of that faith. These people in the ancient world made religious dedications at much higher rates after the eruption than they seem to have done before, and so I can fully believe that this is sincere faith on their part. But it's also a statement of that faith. You know, it's a public statement, and I see that in modern refugee communities too. When people move places, they bring their faith with them, and they establish churches, whether it's a Ghanaian church or whatever it is. And that's a fairly common pattern. People bring other things with them too. But that's one I think that really is a very strong parallel. Also the naming idea, you know, the fact that you're you're naming your kids for the new community. I see that in second and third generation refugee communities here, where people will give their kids American names, you know, that's also a sign of integration in the new community.

President Greg Crawford
Yeah. Oh, I love the naming story.

Steven Tuck
Yeah.

President Greg Crawford
So one of your most striking findings is that people tend to come together during a disaster rather than fracture. Yeah. And so tell us a little bit about that because you've seen it all, you know, in terms of Pompeii, and share with us those those findings.

Steven Tuck
Yeah, it's this doesn't make great television, you know. We have a lot of disaster post-apocalyptic TV series, and they're all, you know, conflict and drama and everything. But what seems to actually happen in reality is that people, they help each other. Those families I mentioned that moved to Puteoli, I can trace their family houses at Pompeii, and they were all right next door to each other, right next to the harbor. One of them was an import merchant. I think he had a ship, and I think all three of those families went down, got on that boat, and got out. And yeah, they have resources. They're merchants. They have money. But we also see the desperately poor at Pompeii. There's some people who are just incredibly poor before the eruption and still afterwards, but they help each other. They adopt orphan kids. There's one kid that makes it out who's adopted by another desperately poor family, and so people are helping each other, not just when they have resources, but when they have almost nothing. That's a pattern that you see a lot after in the aftermath of the Great Fire in San Francisco. One of the remarkable things that happened were soup kitchens and tent cities set up, not by government but by local citizens, and they just organized these big soup kitchens and tent cities for just whoever they could and whoever needed them, and that's the sort of thing that you find repeatedly in these communities. I think, I don't know, to me that's hopeful.

President Greg Crawford
When you study the ancient world, how does it challenge some of our sort of modern-day assumptions about human behavior or human flourishing?

Steven Tuck
Well, one of those is in the post-disaster paradise, as it's called in sociology, where people get together and help each other, and that I think flies in the face of our storytelling about what happens after a disaster. People get together and they work on things collectively in a way that helps everyone. And that I think is an extraordinary story, but one of the other things that I think is a really intriguing piece of evidence is that government responds. I think we're living in a tim, certainly, my students I think are living in a time, where they're leery of government, and here's this notion. You know, Ronald Reagan said that the nine scariest words in the English language are "I'm from the government, and I'm here to help." And I say, you know, I quote that in class, and my students--they know that. You know, they don't remember Reagan, obviously, but they know that quote. And and that seems to be the attitude towards disaster response is sort of a reflexive hesitancy about government intervention. I think it's, yeah, it's tied up with American independence. But in the ancient world, after the eruption of Vesuvius, the government did respond at a number of levels, from local to the emperor himself, and it seems to have come in and made a positive change in people's lives. Everywhere I can find, government steps up and creates new neighborhoods and new infrastructure, and roads, and water systems and really takes care of these displaced people and I think that's a that's fascinating to see.

President Greg Crawford
So how does your work in fields like classic and archeology illustrate both the value of education as a public good that benefits society and also the unique role it plays at universities and supporting long-term curiosity-driven research, like in your book?

Steven Tuck
Well, I think I I may have already answered that partially. The notion that this research on the ancient world really I think informs our response to disasters today. Everything, for example, when you see the a natural disaster and the president flies in and he comforts survivors and he raises money and then you know, in turn directs government to help things out, that's exactly what happened after this. The emperor went in person to Pompeii and comforted people and established a fund which he funded himself personally, and then gave money to all the communities that these survivors moved to. And so our government response, or disaster response, government or nonprofit, is exactly what happened in the Roman world. I think it's absolutely fascinating to see these patterns repeat because they tell us something about, I don't know. I think about us as humans, as we're responding to these things. I think that's really something that higher education does very well, as it gives us an opportunity to pull back a bit and look at larger patterns and to see, okay, how has this been handled in the past, is this what we want to do? Is how? Why are we doing it like this? Oh, because we've done it like this successfully for 1400 years or 2000 years. That's of a great social benefit. Don't get me wrong. I think higher education should have a personal benefit. I like it when my students come and tell me that they got into law school, or got a great job, and you know I always I always celebrate those things. Yeah, but I think there's a social benefit too.

President Greg Crawford
Oh, absolutely.

Steven Tuck
You know.

President Greg Crawford
And then for your students, when you're/we're teaching them about the ancient world, do the questions they bring up to you in class, or after class, or in office hours, are they looking and focused more on the ancient piece of what they're learning, or do they try to extrapolate it to the modern world, or do you get a little bit of both?

Steven Tuck
That's a great question. Yeah, I think they're always making connections to the modern world in their head.

President Greg Crawford
Yeah.

Steven Tuck
Yeah. So a student came up after class yesterday, and we were talking about social mobility in the Roman world, you know, could a freed slave work his way up to become one of the richest men in the Roman world? And absolutely, yeah. I think he was really thinking, in terms of the world he's living in, where we have social mobility and that notion that you can, you know, improve your lot. And so I think they're constantly making connections like that.

President Greg Crawford
Oh, that's great!

Steven Tuck
You know, oh yeah.

President Greg Crawford
It's awesome. So we got to ask you this. Every author got to ask this question. But what's next? What's your next book? Next theme or next topic?

Steven Tuck
So my next book is this theme, but a graphic novel.

President Greg Crawford
Oh wow!

Steven Tuck
Yeah. So I've got an artist lined up and an editor who's very excited about it. I just have to write it. Yeah, but I think this lends itself really well to a graphic novel. I mean, you know, you start with the volcanic eruption and people fleeing and collecting their families and their possessions and such, and then you trace them to their new communities, and you see where they rebuild their businesses and their lives, and make religious dedications, and eventually run for public office. I think it has a lot of visual aspects that would be really good.

President Greg Crawford
Oh my gosh, that's great!

Steven Tuck
So I think that's going to be fun. I'm looking forward to that, and that's really my next big thing is doing the graphic novel version of this.

President Greg Crawford
Oh, that's awesome!

Steven Tuck
So it's really intriguing.

President Greg Crawford
That's exciting. I have a question for you. So Miami, we're known for the teacher-scholar model. You know, our professors here at the university excel at both, and they integrate, and it's just not coexisting these two pillars, but they really integrate well here at Miami, and so when you think about when you're writing your book before it even came out, I suspect you were probably integrating a lot of this into your class--

Steven Tuck
Oh yeah.

President Greg Crawford
--and so talk about, you know, a first-year student that's here taking your class, and then you're introducing them to research that's state of the art in the sense it's not out there yet, it's not written yet, and they're getting a piece of that here at Miami. Can you walk us through some of that?

Steven Tuck
So yeah, I always integrate my research into my classes, but even more importantly, much of my research comes out of my classes.

President Greg Crawford
Oh, that's great

Steven Tuck
-- because it comes out of either questions my students asked or me trying to answer something and realizing that what's in the book or what we thought we knew is not right. I take a lot of students overseas, study tourists, mainly in Italy and sometimes Greece. And as we're walking down sites, I realize sometimes that what's in the book is wrong because we're looking around and we can see that. And so, a lot of my research has come out of teaching.

President Greg Crawford
Oh, that's fantastic!

Steven Tuck
Yeah, it's, you know, teaching about natural disasters and disaster response, or teaching about art, or teaching about archaeology. And so, like, this project came out of a question from my undergraduate advisor. I sort of have internalized that with my students, and I certainly introduce them to this. And sometimes, you know, I hire them. I have two research apprentices right now through the Humanities Center who are doing research for me on my next project. Essentially, they're using machine learning to analyze anonymous Latin texts to see if we can identify authors, and it's pretty exciting. So you know, it is very much collaborative in terms of coming out of the teaching, coming out of student questions, and then it's shared back with them. Of course, you know, they get this before it's out. Yeah.

President Greg Crawford
So it's great that you have students that are working with you on your research and scholarship. That's a thing here at Miami, right? We have 1000s each semester that are really doing meaningful research as undergraduates. Exciting, and they get to challenge themselves and answer enduring questions or try to tackle grand global challenges. But your example of teaching and researching with undergraduates goes back to your undergraduate days. So was that point in your life when you did undergraduate research with your advisor and your mentor- did that change your mindset on the career options that you were going to take or your career pathway?

Steven Tuck
Well, my career pathway was pretty much set by the age of eight. I have always wanted to do this. I've always wanted to go into ancient history and archaeology, and I took Latin in high school. I prepped for it. I studied and prepared the whole way, and I never changed my mind. Oh, there was a moment I think where I wanted to be an astronaut, but didn't we all? Exactly. Yeah. So other than that, this is something I've always wanted to do, but what I took from my mentors was a model of academic mentorship, which I still use. I've had two students today come in and talk to me about advising their honors theses, you know. And one of the things I insist on is we meet weekly to work on this. It's got to be a commitment, and that I got from my mentor. You know that commitment to meet on a weekly basis to make sure that the project is going forward and everything. I think it's something you have to do, and so they did it for me. That's something I can do for my students.

President Greg Crawford
Oh, that's fantastic. Well, thank you, Steve. We appreciate you joining us today for the podcast and sharing this new discovery. Where can our listeners find your new book?

Steven Tuck
Well, they can find it on the website for Oxford University Press, or Amazon, or wherever you buy books. I have seen it on Amazon a lot, but it's pretty much everywhere that you buy books. I've had people send me pictures of it in bookstores that they found around the country, so I know it's out there.

President Greg Crawford
That's great. Well, congratulations on the new book and all your success and the PBS series around Pompeii and all your future projects. We know there's some big announcements coming out too in the future. So great job and keep up the wonderful work.

Steven Tuck
We will. Thank you so much.

President Greg Crawford
That was good. Oh my gosh! Awesome.

Steven Tuck
That flew by.

President Greg Crawford
Thanks for listening to this episode of "In Such a Place" from Miami University. Stay tuned for more great episodes with more great guests wherever podcasts are found.